On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:30:59 -0700 (PDT), dlzc <dlzc1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Dear John C. Polasek:
>
>On Jun 19, 6:48 am, John C. Polasek <jpola...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>...
>> >> Timo, if the electrode is thinly insulated, wouldn't
>> >> all the ions get attracted very close to their
>> >> respective electrodes thus leaving the water
>> >> "relatively" pure?
>>
>> >Yes. "Electrodeionization".
>>
>> >> In this case, wouldn't the dielectric
>> >> constant of the water is retained?
>>
>> >Yes, as I gave you numbers before:
>> >pure water, k = 80
>> >salt water, k = 81
>>
>> The water might break down under fairly weak
>> fields because K = 80 is a very high number for
>> a simple natural substance.
>
>They are two different measures. Water is polar, so without breaking
>down it can rotate to where most of the oxygen atoms are
>preferentially oriented towards the anode.
>
>> What this means is that the bound electrons
>> are on very weak "springs" and have large
>> deflections (K = 80) so that a moderate field might
>> break the springs and free the electron for
>> conduction.
>
>No. You are conflating conduction or conductivity with permittivity.
>In conduction (your "breakdown"), electrons / ions are free to migrate
>through the material the electric field is applied to. In
>permittivity, the material undergos a "physical" change NOT requiring
>the motion of loose charges.
You seem unable to read a sentence: I am saying you have permittivity
as long as the electrons remain elastically bound, (and thus able to
store energy) but upon their breaking loose you have the ohmic
condition.
>Roughly, imagine a bunch of frozen chickens hanging from "pegs" inside
Please don't talk down to me about frozen chickens.
Take a look at my complete analysis of the electron pairs in cells
necessary to exactly sustain and demonstrate the quality of
permittivity of vacuum: .
See the permittivity paper at http://www.dualspace.net
>an enclosure in empty space. The chickens will be randomly oriented.
>Now move it into a gravity field, and the chickens will hang "down".
>In this (silly) analog, the center of mass is slightly lower in the
>graivtational field... because the average chicken is closer to the
>"bottom".
This sentence doesn't parse:
>This is how energy is liberated from "charging" a
>dielectric.
Please explain, preferably without the assistsance of poultry.
>> If the battery remains connected, the E field is still
>> there, exacerbated by local ionizations, and able
>> to do more ionization rather than herding ions where
>> they can't do any harm.
>
>Mobile ions / electrons serve to reduce the field in the dielectric,
>since they tend to hover very near the plate.
Any incidence of shortening the gap, as I assume could occur with ions
will necessarily raise the field intensity elsewhere with possible
avalanche results.
>> What is "thinly insulated"?
>
>For a capacitive cell, with a dielectric thickness t_d, and "thin
>insulator" thickness t_i:
>2 * t_i << t_d
>
>David A. Smith
|
