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Science > Electromagnetics > Re: Expelled: I...
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Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you're

by "Timo A. Nieminen" <timo@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Jun 21, 2008 at 11:44 AM

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Bill Miller wrote:

> May I add my list of Dogmatically accepted physics "laws"
>
> <Yes, of course, Bill. Go right ahead.>
>
> The near-universal interpretation that Maxwell's "Laws" show that E
*causes*
> H and H *causes* E,

Common enough as a just-so story in introductory textbooks. A natural 
interpretation of Faraday's experiments, yes?

Hardly near-universal, as it isn't hard to find books (on 
electromagnetics) where such claims are not made. Historically, it's been 
clear ever since Lorenz's 1867 paper. Also clear in any modern formulation

of electromagnetics as a 4D relativistic field theory (given the Lorenz 
gauge, what else would one expect?).

Would publi****ng (or attempting to) a paper opposing this interpetation 
result in attack on one's scientific career?

> F=MA as a "law" although there are many well recognized exceptions.

Such as? A "law" doesn't need to be universally applicable. For example, 
consider Snell's law: can you use Snell's law when one of the media cannot

be characterised by a refractive index?

> Newton's "law" that violates conservation of momentum.
>
> For *every* action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. NOT!

???

> Coulomb's "law" that "blows up as r --> zero.

One of the well-know deep problems in classical and quantum 
electrodynamics. However, as far as we can tell, Coulomb's law 
_works_. The real problem is the implications of this, such as infinite 
self-energy, and infinite inertia of point charges.

> Thermodynamics "laws" that aren't (except on average.)

Given that statistical mechanics is widely taught to undergrads, making 
this point, is this really dogma?

> I suspect there are more, but we dare not speak them aloud for fear the
> spirit of St. Albert might strike us dead.

Do keep in mind that the original post was equating resistance from within

"establishment science" to the enforced introduction of teaching of 
religious dogma in science classrooms with a supposed enforcement of 
establishment dogma in science. How is defensive anti-dogmatism meant to 
be the same as enforcement of dogma?

Would trying to publish on _any_ of the topics you listed endanger a 
scientific career?

The research-end of science is full of dispute and controversy. Many of 
the participants in disputes over who is correct are wrong (usually at 
least somebody must be, and sometimes everybody is wrong).

The textbook-end of science is rather ossified, and simplified severely at

the introductory level. Witness the usual pattern of teaching classical 
mechanics as True, to be followed later by teaching special relativity as 
True ("What we have taught you before is wrong!" - an attitude which can 
disturb students), when neither is a complete (or we might say, "correct 
in a strict sense") theory. OTOH, both are very good theories when applied

appropriately. Given that you can hardly start out by teaching general 
relativity (to get the GR -> SR -> classical mechanics progression) or 
quantum field theory (to get a QFT -> non-relativistic quantum mechanics 
-> classical mechanics progression), what can one do? Well, the 
transition from CM -> SR should emphasise just how little change is 
required in the core of CM, and certainly shouldn't be along the lines of 
"what we taught you before is wrong". Especially because most of what had 
been taught before is _not_ wrong.

Textbooks are a teaching tool, not expositions on current scientific 
opinion. That said, they can have lasting influence on students. 
In particular, scientific knowledge is in a state of flux, and the 
presentation of textbook content as absolute fact is in opposition to 
this, encouraging scientism or confusion when scientific dispute is 
encountered; not good preparation for modern life. Thus the movements to 
include understanding/history/nature/philosophy of science in science 
education in the schools.

Given that significant, and politically influential, elements of the 
"establishment" are actively working towards education of the public 
including the tentativeness of scientific knowledge, where is the 
dogmatism of the establishment?

Inferior teachers who adopt "textbook fundamentalism" to avoid questioning

are _not_ members of the scientific establishment.

-- 
Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
E-prints: http://eprint.uq.edu.au/view/person/Nieminen,_Timo_A..html
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
 




 75 Posts in Topic:
Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you're fi
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-18 17:59:37 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@[EM  2008-06-18 18:15:33 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Tom M" <tmi  2008-06-18 22:01:13 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Greg Neill" &l  2008-06-18 23:01:01 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Vince Morgan"   2008-06-19 14:13:44 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Jim Black <fmlast3@[EM  2008-06-18 19:08:46 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
oriel36 <geraldkellehe  2008-06-18 20:13:33 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Damaeus <no-mail@[EMAI  2008-06-19 16:22:49 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-19 09:38:47 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Richard Henry <pomerad  2008-06-19 12:06:49 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-20 20:48:24 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Phil Holman" &  2008-06-20 16:33:59 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-21 15:38:55 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-21 11:46:20 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Phil Holman" &  2008-06-21 19:41:44 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Damaeus <no-mail@[EMAI  2008-06-23 20:45:26 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Jim Black <tramspap@[E  2008-06-19 12:20:46 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Igor <thoovler@[EMAIL   2008-06-19 17:46:08 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-20 20:38:37 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Vince Morgan"   2008-06-24 10:54:55 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-25 22:32:38 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-26 17:43:54 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
blackhead <larryharson  2008-06-27 06:35:23 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-06-27 12:21:47 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-27 08:12:05 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-20 15:30:24 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Vince Morgan"   2008-06-21 11:20:36 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Timo A. Nieminen&qu  2008-06-21 11:44:51 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-21 15:54:01 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-21 12:04:12 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-21 19:35:15 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-21 16:34:46 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-23 17:52:16 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-23 14:15:47 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Don Kelly" <  2008-06-23 21:18:15 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-24 14:24:58 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-24 11:08:03 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Szczepan Białek&quo  2008-06-24 19:50:09 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Don Kelly" <  2008-06-25 06:03:34 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-25 16:41:13 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-25 12:57:41 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Greg Neill" &l  2008-06-25 13:12:59 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-25 13:19:18 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Greg Neill" &l  2008-06-25 13:40:58 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Spaceman" <  2008-06-25 13:56:18 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
kl31n <kl31n@[EMAIL PR  2008-06-22 14:48:28 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-23 19:22:16 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
blackhead <larryharson  2008-06-27 11:32:33 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
maxwell <spsi@[EMAIL P  2008-06-29 14:28:07 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-06-29 23:55:42 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Don Kelly" <  2008-06-21 21:57:54 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Timo A. Nieminen&qu  2008-06-22 05:52:17 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Timo A. Nieminen&qu  2008-06-22 11:14:32 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-23 18:33:50 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
maxwell <spsi@[EMAIL P  2008-06-30 22:26:05 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-07-01 10:09:29 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
blackhead <larryharson  2008-07-02 09:45:25 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-07-02 15:27:53 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Timo A. Nieminen&qu  2008-06-24 05:52:17 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-25 18:32:46 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Androcles" <  2008-06-25 19:49:20 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Vince Morgan"   2008-06-26 11:50:01 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-06-25 22:25:22 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
maxwell <spsi@[EMAIL P  2008-07-01 11:09:34 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
Benj <bjacoby@[EMAIL P  2008-06-23 13:55:24 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
maxwell <spsi@[EMAIL P  2008-06-26 08:01:13 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Timo A. Nieminen&qu  2008-06-27 06:55:08 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-06-27 17:23:50 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-06-30 20:08:08 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-07-01 17:28:17 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-07-01 15:32:08 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-07-01 21:40:52 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
John C. Polasek <jpola  2008-07-01 22:04:07 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
"Bill Miller" &  2008-07-02 15:44:25 
Re: Expelled: If you don't believe in holy physics dogma ; you'r
maxwell <spsi@[EMAIL P  2008-06-27 08:37:03 

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tan12V112 Fri Nov 21 0:34:52 CST 2008.